Comments on: Afternoon discussion: What would Holliday and Fuentes cost? Is it worth it? http://futureredbirds.com/2008/07/01/afternoon-discussion-what-would-holliday-and-fuentes-cost-is-it-worth-it/ Baseball's Future in the Gateway City Wed, 11 Mar 2009 20:09:45 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=MU hourly 1 By: Steve Hancock http://futureredbirds.com/2008/07/01/afternoon-discussion-what-would-holliday-and-fuentes-cost-is-it-worth-it/#comment-19558 Steve Hancock Sat, 05 Jul 2008 20:20:07 +0000 http://futureredbirds.wordpress.com/?p=1483#comment-19558 If you are going to trade with Colorado, trade for a pitcher, not a position player. The pitcher is likely to be under-rated, where the position player is likely over-rated. Matt Holliday on the road is likely no better than Ankiel (without the arm and speed) or Ludwick. I think it would be a mistake to trade a bunch of prospects for Holliday, and a bigger mistake to sign him long term for a lot of money. If you are going to trade with Colorado, trade for a pitcher, not a position player. The pitcher is likely to be under-rated, where the position player is likely over-rated. Matt Holliday on the road is likely no better than Ankiel (without the arm and speed) or Ludwick. I think it would be a mistake to trade a bunch of prospects for Holliday, and a bigger mistake to sign him long term for a lot of money.

]]> By: Bill http://futureredbirds.com/2008/07/01/afternoon-discussion-what-would-holliday-and-fuentes-cost-is-it-worth-it/#comment-19450 Bill Wed, 02 Jul 2008 23:27:50 +0000 http://futureredbirds.wordpress.com/?p=1483#comment-19450 "It takes two teams to make a deal." Right, Mike, but the Rookies are not so over-endowed with talent (and I say this as an occasional Rookies fan, although with about 2% of the passion I feel for the Cardinals) that they'd turn down a package that offered them more than they give away, regardless of what positions that package would play. This is the difference between trading to fill a niche -- as we would -- and trading to replenish a talent pool -- as they would. This, by itself, is a compelling reason to be cautious in any trade with them: odds are they'll only go for a deal that leaves us basically screwed. “It takes two teams to make a deal.” Right, Mike, but the Rookies are not so over-endowed with talent (and I say this as an occasional Rookies fan, although with about 2% of the passion I feel for the Cardinals) that they’d turn down a package that offered them more than they give away, regardless of what positions that package would play. This is the difference between trading to fill a niche — as we would — and trading to replenish a talent pool — as they would. This, by itself, is a compelling reason to be cautious in any trade with them: odds are they’ll only go for a deal that leaves us basically screwed.

]]> By: Mike G. http://futureredbirds.com/2008/07/01/afternoon-discussion-what-would-holliday-and-fuentes-cost-is-it-worth-it/#comment-19437 Mike G. Wed, 02 Jul 2008 17:58:17 +0000 http://futureredbirds.wordpress.com/?p=1483#comment-19437 I mean Holliday, of course, not Halliday. I mean Holliday, of course, not Halliday.

]]> By: Mike G. http://futureredbirds.com/2008/07/01/afternoon-discussion-what-would-holliday-and-fuentes-cost-is-it-worth-it/#comment-19436 Mike G. Wed, 02 Jul 2008 17:54:57 +0000 http://futureredbirds.wordpress.com/?p=1483#comment-19436 An occupational hazard of being interested in player development is falling too much in love with the prospects you are following and rooting for , and as a result overvaluing them. I am not eager to trade Rasmus and don't necessarily advocate making him a chip in this potential trade. On the other hand, Rasmus is not a sure thing. He reminds me a lot more of Andy Van Slyke--perhaps a bit better, maybe a bit worse-- than he does of Stan Musial. Another Van Slyke is a very valuable commodity to have, but not an invaluable, untradeable one. And despite the sneering from some quarters, Halliday and Fuentes would represent clear upgrades to what the Cardinals have now, Halliday as a dangerous bat behind Pujols, Fuentes as a strong lefthanded reliever capable of both setting up and closing. Just as important a question as who we would be willing to give up, one which no one here seems to be pursuing, is what would the Rockies be willing to take. Too much of the speculation here is purely Card-centric. It takes two teams to make a deal. Also, would we do better dealing with the Pirates, with Marte and Bay as comparable targets? An occupational hazard of being interested in player development is falling too much in love with the prospects you are following and rooting for , and as a result overvaluing them. I am not eager to trade Rasmus and don’t necessarily advocate making him a chip in this potential trade. On the other hand, Rasmus is not a sure thing. He reminds me a lot more of Andy Van Slyke–perhaps a bit better, maybe a bit worse– than he does of Stan Musial. Another Van Slyke is a very valuable commodity to have, but not an invaluable, untradeable one. And despite the sneering from some quarters, Halliday and Fuentes would represent clear upgrades to what the Cardinals have now, Halliday as a dangerous bat behind Pujols, Fuentes as a strong lefthanded reliever capable of both setting up and closing. Just as important a question as who we would be willing to give up, one which no one here seems to be pursuing, is what would the Rockies be willing to take. Too much of the speculation here is purely Card-centric. It takes two teams to make a deal. Also, would we do better dealing with the Pirates, with Marte and Bay as comparable targets?

]]> By: alex http://futureredbirds.com/2008/07/01/afternoon-discussion-what-would-holliday-and-fuentes-cost-is-it-worth-it/#comment-19424 alex Wed, 02 Jul 2008 13:46:00 +0000 http://futureredbirds.wordpress.com/?p=1483#comment-19424 The best description I've read on Holliday (I believe it was at FJM, but am not certain) is that at Coors he hits like 1993 Frank Thomas. Away from Coors, he hits like 2006 Frank Thomas. A useful, productive player, no doubt, but not worth a cost controlled player who will probably put up close to equal numbers (Rasmus) with superior defense. A package not including Colby... I'd be interested. The best description I’ve read on Holliday (I believe it was at FJM, but am not certain) is that at Coors he hits like 1993 Frank Thomas. Away from Coors, he hits like 2006 Frank Thomas. A useful, productive player, no doubt, but not worth a cost controlled player who will probably put up close to equal numbers (Rasmus) with superior defense.

A package not including Colby… I’d be interested.

]]> By: STLSportsMag » Blog Archive » The Morning Tailgate http://futureredbirds.com/2008/07/01/afternoon-discussion-what-would-holliday-and-fuentes-cost-is-it-worth-it/#comment-19423 STLSportsMag » Blog Archive » The Morning Tailgate Wed, 02 Jul 2008 13:22:31 +0000 http://futureredbirds.wordpress.com/?p=1483#comment-19423 [...] So lets say the Cardinals are interested in Matt Holliday, what would it cost them…discuss [Future Redbirds] [...] [...] So lets say the Cardinals are interested in Matt Holliday, what would it cost them…discuss [Future Redbirds] [...]

]]> By: Bill http://futureredbirds.com/2008/07/01/afternoon-discussion-what-would-holliday-and-fuentes-cost-is-it-worth-it/#comment-19409 Bill Wed, 02 Jul 2008 04:33:06 +0000 http://futureredbirds.wordpress.com/?p=1483#comment-19409 I'm surprised they didn't glom onto Christian Friedrich for the same reason, the more so since his ceiling is generally considered higher and his risk lower. They would have had to use the first-round choice for him since he was gone by sandwich time, but still. I’m surprised they didn’t glom onto Christian Friedrich for the same reason, the more so since his ceiling is generally considered higher and his risk lower. They would have had to use the first-round choice for him since he was gone by sandwich time, but still.

]]> By: theredbaaron http://futureredbirds.com/2008/07/01/afternoon-discussion-what-would-holliday-and-fuentes-cost-is-it-worth-it/#comment-19408 theredbaaron Wed, 02 Jul 2008 04:18:03 +0000 http://futureredbirds.wordpress.com/?p=1483#comment-19408 You know, I've been thinking a lot lately, and this discussion really only reinforces my thought. With the Cardinals so utterly barren of lefthanded pitchers, especially of the relief variety, in the upper minors, how in the world did they pass up Cole St. Clair in the draft? Guy has ugly mechanics, but he didn't get picked until the seventh round by the Dodgers. As a college closer, he most likely would have flown through the system, and been in a position to fill a 'pen spot probably by next year. When I did my draft previews over at VEB earlier this year, I said I wanted nothing to do with St, Clair, but that was when I thought there was a chance he was going to go in the first two rounds. When he was still sitting there in the fifth, sixth rounds, I think the Cards should have moved to shore up a position of organisational weakness and picked him up. He'll probably have a short career with that arm action, but you're only really looking at the years he's cost controlled as a lefty reliever anyway. I think the Cards may have missed a chance on this one. You know, I’ve been thinking a lot lately, and this discussion really only reinforces my thought. With the Cardinals so utterly barren of lefthanded pitchers, especially of the relief variety, in the upper minors, how in the world did they pass up Cole St. Clair in the draft? Guy has ugly mechanics, but he didn’t get picked until the seventh round by the Dodgers.

As a college closer, he most likely would have flown through the system, and been in a position to fill a ‘pen spot probably by next year.

When I did my draft previews over at VEB earlier this year, I said I wanted nothing to do with St, Clair, but that was when I thought there was a chance he was going to go in the first two rounds. When he was still sitting there in the fifth, sixth rounds, I think the Cards should have moved to shore up a position of organisational weakness and picked him up. He’ll probably have a short career with that arm action, but you’re only really looking at the years he’s cost controlled as a lefty reliever anyway.

I think the Cards may have missed a chance on this one.

]]> By: sportsman http://futureredbirds.com/2008/07/01/afternoon-discussion-what-would-holliday-and-fuentes-cost-is-it-worth-it/#comment-19407 sportsman Wed, 02 Jul 2008 03:28:49 +0000 http://futureredbirds.wordpress.com/?p=1483#comment-19407 agree with the knights who say nicht. there is a reason fuentes isn't closing for the rox (ineffective) and there is/are a reason they would give up holiday. i believe we should stay on track with letting the chips fall where they may this season and not go for patches, which i'm afraid holiboras would be (going to be unreasonably priced soon). fuentes is a little more desirable because we don't have any good lhrp candidates in the minors and contrary to luhnow's comments, we didn't really draft any with short ml horizons. for fuentes, it is a matter of value and i would not give up any bright prospects for him i'd rather talk to pirates about their surplus of young lhp's and them taking reyes. agree with the knights who say nicht. there is a reason fuentes isn’t closing for the rox (ineffective) and there is/are a reason they would give up holiday. i believe we should stay on track with letting the chips fall where they may this season and not go for patches, which i’m afraid holiboras would be (going to be unreasonably priced soon). fuentes is a little more desirable because we don’t have any good lhrp candidates in the minors and contrary to luhnow’s comments, we didn’t really draft any with short ml horizons. for fuentes, it is a matter of value and i would not give up any bright prospects for him i’d rather talk to pirates about their surplus of young lhp’s and them taking reyes.

]]> By: Rick Mostak (Indiana Cardinal) http://futureredbirds.com/2008/07/01/afternoon-discussion-what-would-holliday-and-fuentes-cost-is-it-worth-it/#comment-19404 Rick Mostak (Indiana Cardinal) Wed, 02 Jul 2008 02:08:07 +0000 http://futureredbirds.wordpress.com/?p=1483#comment-19404 I think focusing on a less publicized left handed relief pitcher, e.g. Tallett, Downs or Carlson of Toronto is a better way to go for that need. Isn't Fuentes a free agent also after this year? Finally I think the Cardinals should be focused on finding a power hitting or lead off type second baseman. I would guess that Kinsler is untouchable and Roberts is difficult to obtain from the Oriole owner who loves him. I would suggest the Cardinals to focus on a minor league prospect like Cardenas of the Phillies or Lowrie of the Red Sox. I remember as a kid I was terribly dissapointed when the Cards traded Vineger Bend Mizell for a Pirates 2B and it wasn' t Mazeroski. It turned out to be a prospect named Manuel Javier aka Julian Javier. I think focusing on a less publicized left handed relief pitcher, e.g. Tallett, Downs or Carlson of Toronto is a better way to go for that need. Isn’t Fuentes a free agent also after this year?

Finally I think the Cardinals should be focused on finding a power hitting or lead off type second baseman. I would guess that Kinsler is untouchable and Roberts is difficult to obtain from the Oriole owner who loves him. I would suggest the Cardinals to focus on a minor league prospect like Cardenas of the Phillies or Lowrie of the Red Sox. I remember as a kid I was terribly dissapointed when the Cards traded Vineger Bend Mizell for a Pirates 2B and it wasn’ t Mazeroski. It turned out to be a prospect named Manuel Javier aka Julian Javier.

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