Comments on: Kevin Goldstein’s Top 11 Prospects http://futureredbirds.com/2008/02/19/kevin-goldsteins-top-11-prospects/ Baseball's Future in the Gateway City Wed, 11 Mar 2009 20:26:46 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=MU hourly 1 By: siddfynch http://futureredbirds.com/2008/02/19/kevin-goldsteins-top-11-prospects/#comment-14626 siddfynch Thu, 21 Feb 2008 14:21:20 +0000 http://futureredbirds.wordpress.com/?p=934#comment-14626 I'd also put the A's, the Rockies, and the Yankees ahead of the Cards. Others can make a decent argument for the Orioles (post-Bedard trade), Padres, and Nationals. I’d also put the A’s, the Rockies, and the Yankees ahead of the Cards.

Others can make a decent argument for the Orioles (post-Bedard trade), Padres, and Nationals.

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By: sluhser http://futureredbirds.com/2008/02/19/kevin-goldsteins-top-11-prospects/#comment-14622 sluhser Thu, 21 Feb 2008 13:31:48 +0000 http://futureredbirds.wordpress.com/?p=934#comment-14622 Just an interesting bit on Kozma from Callis: Derek (wisconsin): Best SS prospect in the NL Central? Kozma? SportsNation Jim Callis: Good question . . . Yes, Pete Kozma (Cardinals) would be the pick for me. I'm not a huge Alcides Escobar (Brewers) fan, and Todd Frazier (Reds) will move off short at some point. Just an interesting bit on Kozma from Callis:

Derek (wisconsin): Best SS prospect in the NL Central? Kozma?

SportsNation Jim Callis: Good question . . . Yes, Pete Kozma (Cardinals) would be the pick for me. I’m not a huge Alcides Escobar (Brewers) fan, and Todd Frazier (Reds) will move off short at some point.

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By: azruavatar http://futureredbirds.com/2008/02/19/kevin-goldsteins-top-11-prospects/#comment-14617 azruavatar Thu, 21 Feb 2008 04:26:49 +0000 http://futureredbirds.wordpress.com/?p=934#comment-14617 One would imagine that the Cardinals hold Kozma in a higher regard than most of the analysts we read because I haven't seen anyone that projects his ceiling as more than an average SS. I still hate the pick. But I hated the Mortensen pick and I've softened up on that. . .there was a lot of talent left on the board for the Cardinals pick. Time will tell if they made the right decision. One would imagine that the Cardinals hold Kozma in a higher regard than most of the analysts we read because I haven’t seen anyone that projects his ceiling as more than an average SS.

I still hate the pick. But I hated the Mortensen pick and I’ve softened up on that. . .there was a lot of talent left on the board for the Cardinals pick. Time will tell if they made the right decision.

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By: KCardinal http://futureredbirds.com/2008/02/19/kevin-goldsteins-top-11-prospects/#comment-14615 KCardinal Thu, 21 Feb 2008 04:17:49 +0000 http://futureredbirds.wordpress.com/?p=934#comment-14615 azru, What I am essentially saying is that, while they gave him a good review, they, at the time, had underestimated his capabilities. The Cardinals, either by luck or design, knew that they liked Bruce #1 on their board, then Rasmus #2.... most rank them very closely like that in the overall minors now (Rasmus b/w #3 and 7 for most). So either the Cardinals knew better than most all others concerning Rasmus, and others were behind (BA), or they just got lucky. In any case, BA did not recognize his potential being *this* high. All I am saying is that Kozma may have a ceiling higher than what they project for him, and may end up more like a Renteria-type in the future, making him a very good pick (even if we did pass on Porcello). Maybe the Cardinals realize this and it will just take time for his production to prove it. azru,

What I am essentially saying is that, while they gave him a good review, they, at the time, had underestimated his capabilities. The Cardinals, either by luck or design, knew that they liked Bruce #1 on their board, then Rasmus #2…. most rank them very closely like that in the overall minors now (Rasmus b/w #3 and 7 for most).

So either the Cardinals knew better than most all others concerning Rasmus, and others were behind (BA), or they just got lucky. In any case, BA did not recognize his potential being *this* high. All I am saying is that Kozma may have a ceiling higher than what they project for him, and may end up more like a Renteria-type in the future, making him a very good pick (even if we did pass on Porcello). Maybe the Cardinals realize this and it will just take time for his production to prove it.

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By: azruavatar http://futureredbirds.com/2008/02/19/kevin-goldsteins-top-11-prospects/#comment-14614 azruavatar Thu, 21 Feb 2008 04:17:02 +0000 http://futureredbirds.wordpress.com/?p=934#comment-14614 <i>Gotcha, thanks Azru. Have you seen much of Hoffy & Allen Craig? They both look fine by the SFR methodology….</i> I'm hopeful that Dan Fox is going to run translations for between the leagues. At first I was skeptical about how fielding would translate between levels but the more I think about it, the more I think the relative baseline for each level is going to be significantly better. That is to say Hoff and Craig looking average/neutral at lower levels wouldn't look that way in the majors. But that's largely speculation until Fox does the leg work. Farm systems that are definitively better than the Cardinals (imo): Rays Red Sox Rangers Braves Reds Dodgers Gotcha, thanks Azru. Have you seen much of Hoffy & Allen Craig? They both look fine by the SFR methodology….

I’m hopeful that Dan Fox is going to run translations for between the leagues. At first I was skeptical about how fielding would translate between levels but the more I think about it, the more I think the relative baseline for each level is going to be significantly better. That is to say Hoff and Craig looking average/neutral at lower levels wouldn’t look that way in the majors. But that’s largely speculation until Fox does the leg work.

Farm systems that are definitively better than the Cardinals (imo):
Rays
Red Sox
Rangers
Braves
Reds
Dodgers

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By: Bob http://futureredbirds.com/2008/02/19/kevin-goldsteins-top-11-prospects/#comment-14610 Bob Thu, 21 Feb 2008 00:58:45 +0000 http://futureredbirds.wordpress.com/?p=934#comment-14610 Stavinoha was *three* years old for his league, when he had his great partial year in the Midwest League. Therefore, his accomplishment was very nearly meaningless. If you'd asked me then, that's what I'd have said. (Similarly, Joe Mather's AA "breakout" in 2007 is quite possibly meaningless--because of Joe's age, as well as his lack of previous success.) Trey Hearne? Two years old for his league in '06, mediocre strikeout numbers, too many HR's allowed, and just 128 innings. Not a prospect, even with the low, low ERA in 2006. And that's what I'd have said then, too. Thanks a lot for mentioning Mike Ferris, by the way, who the Cards picked just 5 spots before the Red Sox chose Dustin Pedroia. Aaaaaargh! You really know how to hurt a guy. Yup. Cards. Top 5. Keep taunting me, and I'll say they're number two behind only Tampa Bay...and I'll assault you with at least 17 reasons why. Stavinoha was *three* years old for his league, when he had his great partial year in the Midwest League. Therefore, his accomplishment was very nearly meaningless. If you’d asked me then, that’s what I’d have said. (Similarly, Joe Mather’s AA “breakout” in 2007 is quite possibly meaningless–because of Joe’s age, as well as his lack of previous success.)

Trey Hearne? Two years old for his league in ‘06, mediocre strikeout numbers, too many HR’s allowed, and just 128 innings. Not a prospect, even with the low, low ERA in 2006. And that’s what I’d have said then, too.

Thanks a lot for mentioning Mike Ferris, by the way, who the Cards picked just 5 spots before the Red Sox chose Dustin Pedroia. Aaaaaargh! You really know how to hurt a guy.

Yup. Cards. Top 5. Keep taunting me, and I’ll say they’re number two behind only Tampa Bay…and I’ll assault you with at least 17 reasons why.

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By: mateodh http://futureredbirds.com/2008/02/19/kevin-goldsteins-top-11-prospects/#comment-14604 mateodh Wed, 20 Feb 2008 22:43:06 +0000 http://futureredbirds.wordpress.com/?p=934#comment-14604 Bob, I can tell you are big on stats, but I wonder if you would have said some of the same things about Nick Stavinoha after '05 and Trey Hearne in '06. That said, I like your optimism, and I have to admit that a big part of the Cardinals' run this entire decade has been getting huge performances seemingly out of nowhere(Williams, Carpenter, Womack, Duncan, Kinney, Ankiel, even Pujols to an extent). I'm not saying Mike Ferris is ever going to win an MVP award, but I can see how you could expect maybe a few impact talents to emerge that maybe others are tempering their excitement on. My vote: top 16 system, not top 5. Bob, I can tell you are big on stats, but I wonder if you would have said some of the same things about Nick Stavinoha after ‘05 and Trey Hearne in ‘06. That said, I like your optimism, and I have to admit that a big part of the Cardinals’ run this entire decade has been getting huge performances seemingly out of nowhere(Williams, Carpenter, Womack, Duncan, Kinney, Ankiel, even Pujols to an extent). I’m not saying Mike Ferris is ever going to win an MVP award, but I can see how you could expect maybe a few impact talents to emerge that maybe others are tempering their excitement on.

My vote: top 16 system, not top 5.

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By: erik http://futureredbirds.com/2008/02/19/kevin-goldsteins-top-11-prospects/#comment-14602 erik Wed, 20 Feb 2008 21:54:44 +0000 http://futureredbirds.wordpress.com/?p=934#comment-14602 "p.s. Cards are *still* a top 5 system. Woo-hooo! (In Homer Simpson voice.)" Just keep telling yourself that. ;) I think you can take stats and make them say what you want to hear. I'm certainly not disparaging of stats, but you can come up with some "misnomers" if you will when you evaluate farm systems on them alone. i use them a ton, but i prefer to go by the eyes and projectabilitly. “p.s. Cards are *still* a top 5 system. Woo-hooo! (In Homer Simpson voice.)”

Just keep telling yourself that. ;)

I think you can take stats and make them say what you want to hear. I’m certainly not disparaging of stats, but you can come up with some “misnomers” if you will when you evaluate farm systems on them alone. i use them a ton, but i prefer to go by the eyes and projectabilitly.

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By: Bob http://futureredbirds.com/2008/02/19/kevin-goldsteins-top-11-prospects/#comment-14601 Bob Wed, 20 Feb 2008 21:38:46 +0000 http://futureredbirds.wordpress.com/?p=934#comment-14601 Gotcha, thanks Azru. Have you seen much of Hoffy & Allen Craig? They both look fine by the SFR methodology.... Fun AA shortstop comparison for Card fans: Reid Brignac (b. 1/86) v. Jose Martinez (b. 1/86) Defense: Brignac +5 runs in 2007, Martinez +15 Offense: Brignac OPS 26 points above his league, Martinez 63 points. Walk/strikeout ratio: Brignac .59, Martinez .58 Brignac is a unanimous top 50 overall prospect, therefore I'd say Martinez...well, at least deserves a closer look. Much closer. Thanks, Charlie, for the John Sickels insight about Allen Craig. p.s. Cards are *still* a top 5 system. Woo-hooo! (In Homer Simpson voice.) Gotcha, thanks Azru. Have you seen much of Hoffy & Allen Craig? They both look fine by the SFR methodology….

Fun AA shortstop comparison for Card fans: Reid Brignac (b. 1/86) v. Jose Martinez (b. 1/86)

Defense: Brignac +5 runs in 2007, Martinez +15
Offense: Brignac OPS 26 points above his league, Martinez 63 points.
Walk/strikeout ratio: Brignac .59, Martinez .58

Brignac is a unanimous top 50 overall prospect, therefore I’d say Martinez…well, at least deserves a closer look. Much closer.

Thanks, Charlie, for the John Sickels insight about Allen Craig.

p.s. Cards are *still* a top 5 system. Woo-hooo! (In Homer Simpson voice.)

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By: azruavatar http://futureredbirds.com/2008/02/19/kevin-goldsteins-top-11-prospects/#comment-14597 azruavatar Wed, 20 Feb 2008 20:33:44 +0000 http://futureredbirds.wordpress.com/?p=934#comment-14597 His range. He's not very fast and while the "first step" seemed adequate, it didn't strike me as making for a good SS. His arm seemed fine for SS and he makes the plays when he gets to the ball; it's just a matter of how many balls he's <i>going</i> to get to. His range. He’s not very fast and while the “first step” seemed adequate, it didn’t strike me as making for a good SS. His arm seemed fine for SS and he makes the plays when he gets to the ball; it’s just a matter of how many balls he’s going to get to.

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